This is my first post in a long time, but I recently received a comment to my first post in which I would like to respond to, not that my blog will be an answer time for responses, but in this case I choose to take some time and answer a couple comments that were made by "4hisglory" if you don't mind me using your user name. His or her response can be looked at under comments under my first post. The comments were, "You forgot to mention the latest and most recent of all the divisional doctrines in the church today; Dispensationalism", and "Is your dispensationalism part of that which is confusing for unbelievers?" The other comments and questions brought up within the response will be answered another time.
I thank you for your comment and response. Personally I would not like to be labeled, but just as the world does most of Christendom also labels people and religion in my opinion to dress it up . Many also label themselves for a source of identity. Personally I want my identity to be found solely in Christ as a member of the Body of Christ. For example, Baptists, they believe strongly in baptism if not for salvation, then as an ordinance to be observed after salvation. You take their water baptism away and they will fight you real hard. Also, Pentecostals, they believe strongly in the gifts, you take the gifts away and they struggle with their spirituality or I would say identity in Christ alone. After all this is said, I guess you can call me a Pauline Dispensationalist, BECAUSE it is NOT that I find my identity in Paul at all, but the message of the dispensation of the grace of God is only preached by Paul and in God's grace Paul's gospel is where I found how to be saved today and how I come to the knowledge of my identity solely in Christ.
This leads to your comment that I, "forgot to mention the latest and most recent of all the divisional doctrines in the church today; Dispensationalism." First I want to make a couple statements that will help clear somethings up. I can not speak for all Dispensationalists, because not all are Pauline in their knowledge and thinking, in fact everyone is a dispensationalist one way or another if you want to be or not. However the question is are you Pauline? Many may be thinking what is the big deal with Paul. Many may be thinking I make too much of him. Let me clarify this thinking by asking two questions. 1) Why Paul? Did not Jesus Christ give the 12 disciples the "great commission" as religion calls it to go to ALL the NATIONS? Why would God choose Saul of Taursus the leader of the rebellion against the 12? Were the 12 out of the will of God? Did God choose Paul one man to carry out what the 12 could not do? Or, did something change in God's plan that He had purposed in Himself before the foundation of the world not making it known unto the world keeping it a mystery until a due time? 2) Who is your apostle? Now that was more than two questions, but just somethings to get the brain thinking. Is Peter (Cephas), James, John, Apollos, your apostle or is it Jesus Christ in His earthly ministry that you are to follow and who is to teach you what God is doing NOW and where you fit in? Or is it Paul?
Your comment about Dispensationalism (Pauline) being another divisional doctrine made me think of 1 Corinthians 1-4. I am not going to post all four chapters and trust readers to be Bereans. Paul addresses that there were divisions in the Corinth Church for (1:12) some said, I am of Paul, I of Apollos, and I of Cephas. Don't stop there Paul also mentions Christ that some were saying, "I am of Christ." Isn't that a good thing isn't that what we want, how then could it be causing a division? Paul says those who say they are of Christ are causing division and contention within the church. As Paul continues he speaks about a hidden wisdom about Jesus Christ, that if the princes of the world would have known it they would not have crucified Him (v. 8). In verse 7 Paul's says, "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory." God has a hidden wisdom in a mystery of His Son Jesus Christ and it is this message, gospel, and wisdom that they were to follow, not Jesus' earthly ministry for Paul later mentions in 2 Cor. to no longer Christ in the flesh (2 Cor. 5:16). Paul in Corinthians chapters 1 through 4 speaks about this wisdom and the fellowlaborours or workers of the Lord in teaching this and a student of the Word should compare 1 Cor. 1:12-13 to 4:14-17. See in chapter 1 the division came from people following the man Cephas, Paul, Apollos, and Jesus and in chapter 4 Paul makes the issue his gospel, his message, his apostleship, not himself, but his office. "For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Wherefore I beseech you, BE YE FOLLOWERS OF ME (v.15-16). Only two people in the Bible use this statement; Jesus and Paul. Also in verse 17, "For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall BRING YOU INTO REMEMBRANCE OF MY WAYS WHICH BE IN CHRIST, AS I TEACH EVERY WHERE IN EVERY CHURCH." Romans 11:13 says, "For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office." We are not to follow Cepha's office, Apollo's office, nor Christ's office on earth as a man which is for Israel, but to follow after Paul's office of apostleship which is of Christ as the glorified crucified Savior in the heavenly places far above all principality and power (Eph. 1). Paul is not just our instructor as the Corinthians had 10,000 of those, but our father in the gospel and we are to follow Paul's ways
in Christ. Paul is your apostle he is the apostle of and to the Gentiles. Divisions come from mixing doctrine of Christ (Matt. 5-7 "beatitudes") for Israel with sound doctrine Romans-Philemon for and to us given by Christ from heaven to Paul. Division comes when theologians, scholars, and pastors mix Peter's message with Paul's. This is why we need to rightly divide the WORD OF TRUTH (2 Tim. 2:15). All God's word is truth, but not all of God's Word is written to and for you. It needs to be rightly divided. The answer to your comment about dispensationalism being another divisional doctrine is true if it is not Pauline, because as said before everyone is a dispensationalist and divides God's Word, but do you rightly divide by listening to your Apostle Paul? Pauline Dispensationalism is the solution to the divisions within the church today just as it was when Paul wrote to the Corinthians. The Body of Christ needs to be in remembrance of Paul's ways which are in Christ just as Israel needed to be called back to the Law of Moses. Paul is to the Body of Christ as Moses was to Israel. Today the struggle comes with having Pauline authority in our life just as Israel had problems with Moses authority. The authority Moses had was given by God and the authority Paul has is from Christ from heavenly places (Gal. 1:11-12). A final comment I would make is that Pauline doctrine has been under attack ever since his seperation from his mothers womb, Israel (Gal. 1:15) (it is not his real mother, read it in context). Pauline authority, apostleship, ministry, message, and gospel have been under reproach and persecution ever since leaving the Jewish religion to the gospel of the grace of God that was given solely to him as the Law was unto Moses to preach and teach everyone at every church (1 Cor. 4:17). Pauline doctrine speaks of what God's doing today (hence all of Paul's, "BUT NOW" statements), and wants the Body of Christ to walk worthy of their calling. Paul says, "I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, (what is this vocation and how) with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all (Eph. 4:1-6). Does the Church (singular) look like this today? No, we have churches (plural).
Paul's Warnings For Not Following Him (Division)
Concluding I defend Paul's apostleship, ministry, and gospel, because he is my apostle and yours and to show that Pauline truth or Pauline Dispensationalism is not another divisional doctrine, BUT the clear response to all the division. Paul's ways which are in Christ (can't stress enough) need to be remembered and his office to be magnified (to enlarge), not because I say so, but because God's Word says so. All scripture is truth, but it needs to be rightly divided by listening to our apostle Paul so that we may have an understanding in all things. So I say with Paul, "if any man think himself to be a prophet, OR SPIRITUAL, let him ACKNOWLEDGE (remember that word) that the things I WRITE UNTO YOU ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant (1 Cor. 14:37-38)." Better yet, he says, "Consider what I say; and THE LORD GIVE THEE UNDERSTANDING IN ALL THINGS." The Lord is the one that gives understanding to those who listen to the apostle that He Himself gave an office to in order to teach us about Himself (Christ), the grace of God, and the purpose of God in the heavenly places (Body of Christ) and the earth (Israel).
Who is your apostle?
Why Paul?
4 comments:
I accidentally posted my response on the other thread, so you will have to go there to find it. Sorry:)
4HisGlory
Joshua,
I appreciate you allowing me to post on your blog. I probably won’t be able to post much anymore simply because school will be pretty intense for the rest of the semester as well as working a lot. I just wanted to say a few things.
I have read you and Jeremy’s posts through and it has become very concerning to me some of your theological positions.
When I was about 18 years old I was challenged by a Jehovah’s Witness to support my position on the Trinity from scripture. I was a nominal Christian, if a Christian at all, and didn’t know anything about my faith. So I began to search the scriptures to see what it said about the Trinity. At that point, I didn’t even know the bible didn’t use the word Trinity. I have to realize that it was through that particular study of the nature of God that I truly came to know Him personally. I encountered Jesus, the man who was more than a man, and gave my life to Him.
Through my studies, I not only studied what the scriptures said about who God and Jesus are, but also about how the mind of cults work. Most all of them say the exact same thing, only with their own twists.
1)First, they identify a problem within traditional evangelicalism (Mormon leader, Joseph Smith said evangelicals lacked modern day apostles and prophets to guide the people; Charles T. Russell, Jehovah’s Witness leader maintained that evangelical doctrines were confusing and that there were too many denomination and the people needed an organization as a whole to guide the people)
2)Then, they take certain passages (apostasy passages) and apply them to traditional evangelicals as a whole.
3)They will often construct a major theme that they push that all else within their system hinges upon. (Mormons say we need modern day apostles and prophets and we need to adhere to Joseph Smith and his extra biblical writings; Jehovah’s Witness’ say we must adhere to the Watchtower organization; and Roman Catholicism says we must adhere to “mother church” and the Pope, our modern day Peter)
4)The cults then maintain that traditional evangelicals have strayed and apostatized due to their not adhering to this “major theme”.
5)Eventually, the cults “major theme” becomes the only way to fix all the divisions in the church
6)Finally, the cults will maintain that all true enlightenment comes only through understanding and adhering to their “major theme”. True understanding, and ultimately salvation, comes only through the cult’s particular organization and following their particular doctrines. This is the authoritarian aspect that is the common thread through all cultic organizations.
Of course, it may not happen in that order, but that is indeed the trend that can be seen through all cults. Do you see anything wrong Joshua? Do you see anything common to yourself?
Thus far, I have heard both, you and Jeremy, say 1) Evangelicals have all went astray because we have went after “another gospel” by not adhering strictly to Paul’s writings, 2) we need to adhere to our apostle Paul and no one else because other writings are not for us (much like Catholics look to Peter, and Mormons to Joseph Smith), 3) There are multiple gospels that God honors (this Is the surest sign of a cult), 4) You have said true revival and the end of division will only come by adhering to your “major theme” of Pauline dispensationalism, 5) You have applied apostasy passages to the present church because they do not adhere to “Pauline truth”. As a matter a fact, most of the problems in the church are because of non-compliance to Pauline truth, 6) You have said true understanding only comes by adhering to your “major theme”,
The only thing that your particular cultic expression lacks is a structural organization to preside over and guide your “major theme.” But, inherent within your system is the same type of authoritarian aspect common in all cults. Namely, adhere to Paul and his doctrine or be lost in “another gospel”. The two of you even pat each other on the backs and give compliments like, “There’s some major Pauline truth in this post” or “it means so much to have the support of other dispensational brethren who divide the word rightly” and “we are entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation” (of course you probably think that entails preaching Pauline dispensationalism). Ask yourself, what your view lacks to be considered a cult? And just remember, before you deny that any of this applies to you, all cults deny that the test of a cult applies to them.
I hope you will evaluate closely what you are involved with. You seem to be young and have much time ahead of you. I have talked with many people who have come out of cults who say, “I sure wish I saw the truth earlier.” Now is the time to turn things around. I do this because I care about the truth, and I want to see you come to know it. If you have any questions let me know.
God bless,
4HisGlory
I appreciate your concern and will continue to study the scriptures, but what you are saying seems to me that every belief system is like this, everyone has the answer, every belief system wants you to be a member and join their truth. I don't belief some system I belief God's authority in which clearly points to Paul for us today. I believe all Scripture is for us to learn from, but not all Scripture is to us. For us to think that we are Israel is ignorance to the plain flow of Scripture. Your a Calvinists I can't think of any other system TULIP that you have to stick with otherwise your whole belief system crashes besides Total Depravity (or is it Total Inability). I believe in the gospel of the grace of God that if you believe in the cross work of Christ for the forgiveness of your sins you are saved. That is the unadulterated gospel not taking from it or adding to it. After one is saved we live in that gospel of grace, not taking from it not adding to it. To say that is cultish is scary, to say that the church is not far from or in apostasy is nothing, but a study of Scripture. For instance look at Stephen he gave Israel's history of their apostasy and they closed their ears and stoned God's messenger. I do not believe I am God's messenger to warn you by any means, but Paul clearly gives these warnings to the Body of Christ. In Acts when Paul is on the ship to Rome, I believe this to be a picture of Christ leading his program away from Israel having the apostle Paul being His spokesman and the whole ship is to listen to him in order for their life's to be saved, guess what everyone was saved, but they still made shipwreck. So I give you your own advice, Ask yourself, what your view lacks to be considered a cult? And just remember, before you deny that any of this applies to you, all cults deny that the test of a cult applies to them. All beliefs are some kind of system. I believe that the ministry of reconciliation is not Pauline dispensationalism, but it is yet while we were yet still sinners with the love that God loved us with He was reconciling the world unto Himself (paraphrase), the point I make is that that message comes from Christ from the heavenly places to Paul, unlike His earthly message of the kingdom given by Christ on earth to the 12. There is one gospel of Christ given by Christ to Paul to preach to the world. All the other gospels are truth they just need to be recognized that they don't save today, but they did for Israel. Then after one is saved they need to learn the grace of God not the law like the Galatians fell into, Paul calls them foolish, because they fell into doctrine not for them. Anyways I can go on, but I thank you for your response and will always continue to search the Scriptures and I am young and pray all the time the God would open the eyes of my understanding and only believe that He will do so.
In Him,
Joshua
Joshua,
Thank you for writing me back so quickly. Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. I have a full 15 hour load at school and I’m working 44 hours this week. Thanks for bearing with me. I would like to address a few things you said in your response.
First, it’s not simply holding to a system of belief that makes one a cult. It is the expression of belief within that system that makes one a cult. There are many systematic theology books out there that have differing and various approaches to doctrine that would not be considered cultic or heretical. In other words, simple disagreements do not constitute someone as heretical or cultic. It is the nature of the error within the system of belief that constitutes that decision. Remember, my first point about cults was that they usually start by denying a doctrine traditionally held within evangelicalism. Their new understanding causes them to depart farther and farther from orthodoxy until they are no longer recognizable within traditional Christian circles.
You are correct that we, and I, should constantly evaluate ourselves to see if we are in the faith. We should always make our election and calling sure. But the test of a heretic or a cult is done for those who depart from what has already been tested and established as orthodox Christian teaching. Calvinism, the example you gave, has stood the test of time and orthodoxy. Pauline dispensationalism, something less than 75 years old, has not. Both classic and progressive dispensationalist agree with my assessment regarding your position. You really need to reconsider where you stand.
I hope you see the difference between what our positions would constitute as problematic. I would maintain that if evangelicals stray it is because they do not submit to and obey all of the scriptures, not just Paul’s writings. You, on the other hand, say the church as a whole has strayed because they DO look to and obey ALL of the scriptures. It wouldn’t make any sense for you to say that evangelicals aren’t “following” Paul, because all evangelicals hold His writings to be equally authoritative and binding upon us, just as the rest. We do “follow” Paul, but not Paul alone. You are the one saying something radically different than God’s Church. You have strayed from Christian orthodoxy. You have encouraged the bride of Christ to take away from God’s message and only submit to certain portions.
You have built an entire system based upon inferences, and none of them tell us exactly how to divide the word as Pauline Dispensationalists do. You and Jeremy talk about 2 Timothy 2:15 as being the “key” to unlock the rest of the bible, but millions of Spirit-led Christians do not see what you guys are getting at. 2 Timothy 2:15 is not a verse that teaches hermeneutics. It simply tells you to handle the bible accurately. It doesn’t lay out principles of biblical interpretation.
Let me make this clear. Paul, being a first century missionary to the Gentiles does not mean that his message contained the only information the Gentiles should listen to. If I were told to go to Africa as a missionary, would that mean they should only listen to my message and no one else? Just because Paul was commissioned to go to the Gentiles in no way proves that he had their exclusive message. The connection you two are trying to make is simply not logical or necessary. As a matter a fact, consider these points,
1)The book of Revelation, written by the apostle John, was addressed to a primarily Gentile audience (Ephesus was predominately Gentile). Within that book, John calls his Gentile readers to “repent” and “persevere” over and over. This doesn’t comport with Pauline dispensationalism.
2)If Paul’s words are exclusively to the Gentiles then why does Peter remind his readers (primarily Jewish) about how Paul wrote to them? (2 Peter 3:15,16) Why would Paul be addressing the same audience that Peter does?
3)If the “gospels” and commandments in the OT and the law are to be kept completely separate from the NT gospel and Church era, because they are addressed to a different audience, then why does Paul quote from the Ten Commandments as though it were binding upon the Gentile Church? (Ephesians 6:1-3)
4)Next, when Paul is instructing Timothy on how he should treat elders within the church he quotes both the OT and Jesus in one verse, illustrating their binding nature upon the Gentiles. “For the scriptures says, ‘You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,’(Found in Duet. 25:4) and ‘The laborer is worthy of his wages.’”(Found in Luke 10:7). (1 Timothy 5:18)
5)In 2 Corinthians 6:16-7:1, Paul commands Timothy to make sure the people are not unequally yoked with unbelievers. Paul claims the reason why we should not be unequally yoked is because we are the temple of God. Then, Paul immediately quotes several verses from the OT (Exodus 29:45; 1 Chron. 17:13; Isaiah 52:11). These are verses that were said directly to Israel. Paul then does something interesting. He says, “Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves…” How can Paul say the Corinthians have promises that were written to a different people from a “different gospel?” Is Paul not doing the very same thing you claim Christians are doing wrong today by adhering to “another gospel”? Not only that, he turns his readers to those promises for their personal encouragement.
6)Finally, I would like to quote Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:11. He says, “Whether then it was I (Paul) or they (other Apostles), so we (both Paul and other apostles) preach and so you (Corinthians) believed.” This indicates as strongly as any other verse that Paul and the rest of the apostles were preaching the same gospel. Why, if Paul and the other apostles preached different gospels, does Paul lump them both into the same category as preaching that which the Corinthians believed? How could the Corinthians believe both, Paul and the apostles gospels if they were different? This strongly suggests a unity within messages.
In summary, you take away words that were meant to be relevant to us, and you put meanings into the words of Paul that he didn’t intend for them to have. This is more than problems with exegesis, this is very dangerous. If Jesus is the one who permeates all of scripture, then we should see Him not only in Paul’s epistles, but all the rest of the NT scripture as well. And if His life, death and resurrection is central for the Christian life, then all that speaks about Him is relevant for us. But your system demands that the Church not adhere to many books in the bible. As a matter a fact, your system says that the mass of evangelicalism has strayed because they HAVE adhered to the whole of scripture, specifically, those parts not written by Paul. Again, this is a very serious issue and I hope you reconsider you position.
God Bless,
4HisGlory
P.S. I believe in total depravity (Genesis 6:5; Isaiah 64:6; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:9-19). And total depravity results in total inability (1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7,8; Jeremiah 13:23; John 6:44,65).
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